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	<title>Comments on: Human Smoke &#8212; Part Three</title>
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	<link>http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/</link>
	<description>a blog in ever-shifting standing</description>
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		<title>By: Top Ten Books of 2008 : Edward Champion&#8217;s Reluctant Habits</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-249300</link>
		<dc:creator>Top Ten Books of 2008 : Edward Champion&#8217;s Reluctant Habits</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 22:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/#comment-249300</guid>
		<description>[...] see the Human Smoke roundtable discussion that was conducted on these pages: Part One, Part Two, Part Three, Part Four, and Part Five. See also Bat Segundo [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] see the Human Smoke roundtable discussion that was conducted on these pages: Part One, Part Two, Part Three, Part Four, and Part Five. See also Bat Segundo [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Reis</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-241573</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Reis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 04:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/#comment-241573</guid>
		<description>Colleen Mondor writes:
The first camps actually opened in 1933 (Dachau was one of them). They were not death camps as such but punishment or work camps and they were hell. Mauthausen opened after the invasion of Austria in 1938 - the slogan was “extermination by work.”

I searched the web and found many examples of the phrase &quot;extermination by work&quot; but none that verified that this phrase was an official &quot;slogan&quot; of Mathausen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Colleen Mondor writes:<br />
The first camps actually opened in 1933 (Dachau was one of them). They were not death camps as such but punishment or work camps and they were hell. Mauthausen opened after the invasion of Austria in 1938 &#8211; the slogan was “extermination by work.”</p>
<p>I searched the web and found many examples of the phrase &#8220;extermination by work&#8221; but none that verified that this phrase was an official &#8220;slogan&#8221; of Mathausen.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Covey</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-241447</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Covey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 22:58:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/#comment-241447</guid>
		<description>I applaud your discussion of World War II, but folks, I just gotta ask - saw this young whipper-snapper on Fox (Sheepdog Smith or something) he says “I’ve read about the Vietnam War.” Yeah Shep ole buddy, lotta folks did a lot more’n read about it, you punk-ass dipshit. 

So I’m driving through Austria back in the day, stop fer coffee, and there’s this old old guy having a spot a grappa. You know he fought in the war. My general store guy, Bruno, back in Italy, says “yeah...we fought against the Americans, but then we fought alongside them.”

The point being, is nice to have opinions, but why not ask somebody who was there?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I applaud your discussion of World War II, but folks, I just gotta ask &#8211; saw this young whipper-snapper on Fox (Sheepdog Smith or something) he says “I’ve read about the Vietnam War.” Yeah Shep ole buddy, lotta folks did a lot more’n read about it, you punk-ass dipshit. </p>
<p>So I’m driving through Austria back in the day, stop fer coffee, and there’s this old old guy having a spot a grappa. You know he fought in the war. My general store guy, Bruno, back in Italy, says “yeah&#8230;we fought against the Americans, but then we fought alongside them.”</p>
<p>The point being, is nice to have opinions, but why not ask somebody who was there?</p>
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		<title>By: eNotes Book Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Why Won&#8217;t You Help Tao Lin!??!</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-241444</link>
		<dc:creator>eNotes Book Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Why Won&#8217;t You Help Tao Lin!??!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/#comment-241444</guid>
		<description>[...] Baker looks like a lawn gnome, but that hasn&#8217;t kept Ed&#8217;s roundtable and the NY Times from still talking about his new WW II book Human Smoke. There is a lot of heated [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Baker looks like a lawn gnome, but that hasn&#8217;t kept Ed&#8217;s roundtable and the NY Times from still talking about his new WW II book Human Smoke. There is a lot of heated [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Human Smoke &#8212; Part Two : Edward Champion&#8217;s Filthy Habits</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-241443</link>
		<dc:creator>Human Smoke &#8212; Part Two : Edward Champion&#8217;s Filthy Habits</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:00:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/#comment-241443</guid>
		<description>[...] (This is the second of a five-part roundtable discussion of Nicholson Baker&#8217;s Human Smoke. For additional installments: Part One, Part Three.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (This is the second of a five-part roundtable discussion of Nicholson Baker&#8217;s Human Smoke. For additional installments: Part One, Part Three.) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Human Smoke &#8212; Part One : Edward Champion&#8217;s Filthy Habits</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-241442</link>
		<dc:creator>Human Smoke &#8212; Part One : Edward Champion&#8217;s Filthy Habits</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:00:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/#comment-241442</guid>
		<description>[...] (This is the first of a five-part roundtable discussion of Nicholson Baker&#8217;s Human Smoke. For additional installments: Part Two, Part Three.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (This is the first of a five-part roundtable discussion of Nicholson Baker&#8217;s Human Smoke. For additional installments: Part Two, Part Three.) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Augustine</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-241431</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Augustine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:21:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/#comment-241431</guid>
		<description>Micro-point, on a near-tangent: no one writing about all this, with a genuine drive to unearth root causes and conditions on the German side, should do so without living in Germany for at least a few years. 

Speak the language, learn the slang, go to parties, make friends and interact with the populace. There are a few striking aspects of German culture; the so-called &quot;cult of the Father&quot; (ie, susceptibility to authority figures which, in Germany, are most often mere bureaucrats) is only the most well-known of them.

There&#039;s a phrase: &quot;Deine eigene schuld&quot; (your own fault) and I&#039;ve seen, time and time again, how anyone who gets in any kind of trouble here, minor or major, preventable or not, gets hit (and isolated) with that. The attitude being that you&#039;re either a fool, a bad-luck bird or out of favor with the Gods to be in such a bad way, so a crowd watching an Ausländer being harrassed by soccer fans on the S-Bahn feels no need to cross the line into the territory of the victim&#039;s bad luck by helping. What this involves is a total absence of empathy that puts me in mind of a mild autism. 

Many Germans, even today, while wanting nothing to do with the tacky taint of skinhead politics, feel that the Jews &quot;had it coming&quot;, in a way. That they precipitated the conditions of their own destruction. 

Germany is an amazingly liberal society, these days, as a reaction to the horrors of before, obviously. But, every day, in a thousand little ways, that Cultural Autism asserts itself. America is a melting pot/salad bowl and, therefore, crazy in a thousand different, very protean, ways. Germany is rather more homogenous and crazy in just a few ways that are *much* easier to discover a pattern for.

Once you&#039;ve lived here long enough, the events of the recent past start losing their incomprehensibility. I once had an old woman&#039;s mid-sized dog start barking, *ferociously*, at me, from across the street, causing quite a commotion. The result being that everyone else on the sidewalk, after the dog had been quieted, stared at *me*, not the dog. That&#039;s very German.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Micro-point, on a near-tangent: no one writing about all this, with a genuine drive to unearth root causes and conditions on the German side, should do so without living in Germany for at least a few years. </p>
<p>Speak the language, learn the slang, go to parties, make friends and interact with the populace. There are a few striking aspects of German culture; the so-called &#8220;cult of the Father&#8221; (ie, susceptibility to authority figures which, in Germany, are most often mere bureaucrats) is only the most well-known of them.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a phrase: &#8220;Deine eigene schuld&#8221; (your own fault) and I&#8217;ve seen, time and time again, how anyone who gets in any kind of trouble here, minor or major, preventable or not, gets hit (and isolated) with that. The attitude being that you&#8217;re either a fool, a bad-luck bird or out of favor with the Gods to be in such a bad way, so a crowd watching an Ausländer being harrassed by soccer fans on the S-Bahn feels no need to cross the line into the territory of the victim&#8217;s bad luck by helping. What this involves is a total absence of empathy that puts me in mind of a mild autism. </p>
<p>Many Germans, even today, while wanting nothing to do with the tacky taint of skinhead politics, feel that the Jews &#8220;had it coming&#8221;, in a way. That they precipitated the conditions of their own destruction. </p>
<p>Germany is an amazingly liberal society, these days, as a reaction to the horrors of before, obviously. But, every day, in a thousand little ways, that Cultural Autism asserts itself. America is a melting pot/salad bowl and, therefore, crazy in a thousand different, very protean, ways. Germany is rather more homogenous and crazy in just a few ways that are *much* easier to discover a pattern for.</p>
<p>Once you&#8217;ve lived here long enough, the events of the recent past start losing their incomprehensibility. I once had an old woman&#8217;s mid-sized dog start barking, *ferociously*, at me, from across the street, causing quite a commotion. The result being that everyone else on the sidewalk, after the dog had been quieted, stared at *me*, not the dog. That&#8217;s very German.</p>
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		<title>By: Gwenda</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-241430</link>
		<dc:creator>Gwenda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/#comment-241430</guid>
		<description>(Always glad to see a Galeano namecheck.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Always glad to see a Galeano namecheck.)</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-241422</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 04:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/human-smoke-part-three/#comment-241422</guid>
		<description>Not to add to Colleen&#039;s sense that she&#039;s being targeted, but she seems to be hung up on the idea that Baker has more of an ax to grind than he does.  I think the point of his bare presentation of selected facts is to suggest rather than prove.  

Was Hitler a monster? No question, and even if Baker hadn&#039;t included any negative details about him, readers would still know that.  Was Churchill a bad guy? Now that&#039;s not been much discussed, and it takes a bit more evidence to indicate that he might have been, hence the emphasis on the darker moments of the Allied side.  

In the end, there&#039;s nothing in the book that says Churchill and FDR were wrong and that the war was the result of their saber rattling.  It just suggests that the often-prescient pacifists probably deserved a better hearing then, and that they should have one now, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to add to Colleen&#8217;s sense that she&#8217;s being targeted, but she seems to be hung up on the idea that Baker has more of an ax to grind than he does.  I think the point of his bare presentation of selected facts is to suggest rather than prove.  </p>
<p>Was Hitler a monster? No question, and even if Baker hadn&#8217;t included any negative details about him, readers would still know that.  Was Churchill a bad guy? Now that&#8217;s not been much discussed, and it takes a bit more evidence to indicate that he might have been, hence the emphasis on the darker moments of the Allied side.  </p>
<p>In the end, there&#8217;s nothing in the book that says Churchill and FDR were wrong and that the war was the result of their saber rattling.  It just suggests that the often-prescient pacifists probably deserved a better hearing then, and that they should have one now, too.</p>
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