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	<title>Comments on: Roundup</title>
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		<title>By: Abigail</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/roundup-120/comment-page-1/#comment-208544</link>
		<dc:creator>Abigail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>No, I can certainly think of instances in which anthropomorphized animals are used to great effect - &lt;i&gt;Watership Down&lt;/i&gt; comes most readily to mind.  I just didn&#039;t think Ed had given particularly good examples, although now that I think of it it&#039;s possible that all talking animal stories are, at heart, allegories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I can certainly think of instances in which anthropomorphized animals are used to great effect &#8211; <i>Watership Down</i> comes most readily to mind.  I just didn&#8217;t think Ed had given particularly good examples, although now that I think of it it&#8217;s possible that all talking animal stories are, at heart, allegories.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/roundup-120/comment-page-1/#comment-208467</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 06:45:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/?p=5683#comment-208467</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not going to stick up for Pullman as one of the great writers of our age, but I hardly think he&#039;s as bad as you made him out to be.  It&#039;s a matter of opinion, though, so all I can say is &lt;i&gt;caveat lector&lt;/i&gt;, your mileage may vary, etc., etc.  At least you weren&#039;t really claiming that talking animals are acceptable only in (hideous, intolerable) allegory, which is what your first comment suggested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not going to stick up for Pullman as one of the great writers of our age, but I hardly think he&#8217;s as bad as you made him out to be.  It&#8217;s a matter of opinion, though, so all I can say is <i>caveat lector</i>, your mileage may vary, etc., etc.  At least you weren&#8217;t really claiming that talking animals are acceptable only in (hideous, intolerable) allegory, which is what your first comment suggested.</p>
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		<title>By: Abigail</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/roundup-120/comment-page-1/#comment-208382</link>
		<dc:creator>Abigail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:26:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/?p=5683#comment-208382</guid>
		<description>To be honest, James, there are many, many other reasons for my dismissal of Pullman&#039;s trilogy - the indifferent prose, the boring characters, the bigotry.  But the cute animal companions were definitely icing on the cake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be honest, James, there are many, many other reasons for my dismissal of Pullman&#8217;s trilogy &#8211; the indifferent prose, the boring characters, the bigotry.  But the cute animal companions were definitely icing on the cake.</p>
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		<title>By: DrMabuse</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/roundup-120/comment-page-1/#comment-208254</link>
		<dc:creator>DrMabuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 01:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>And the hell of it is, Mr. Grayson, that John Schneider was born in New York!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the hell of it is, Mr. Grayson, that John Schneider was born in New York!</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/roundup-120/comment-page-1/#comment-208249</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 01:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/?p=5683#comment-208249</guid>
		<description>John Schneider has written &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ctlibrary.com/bc/2004/marapr/15.34.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;some interesting book reviews&lt;/a&gt;.  But due to what I would call anti-Dixie prejudice, NBCC has rejected his membership application.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Schneider has written <a href="http://www.ctlibrary.com/bc/2004/marapr/15.34.html" rel="nofollow">some interesting book reviews</a>.  But due to what I would call anti-Dixie prejudice, NBCC has rejected his membership application.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/roundup-120/comment-page-1/#comment-208170</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/?p=5683#comment-208170</guid>
		<description>Then &quot;we&quot; dismiss it to our great loss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then &#8220;we&#8221; dismiss it to our great loss.</p>
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		<title>By: Abigail</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/roundup-120/comment-page-1/#comment-208135</link>
		<dc:creator>Abigail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 21:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;Do we discount Maus because it involves rats? Do we discount Orwell’s Animal Farm because the animals talk? Do we discount Philip Pullman’s His Dark Materials trilogy because all the humans are accompanied by talking animals?&lt;/i&gt;

Allegory.  Allegory.  Yes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Do we discount Maus because it involves rats? Do we discount Orwell’s Animal Farm because the animals talk? Do we discount Philip Pullman’s His Dark Materials trilogy because all the humans are accompanied by talking animals?</i></p>
<p>Allegory.  Allegory.  Yes.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/roundup-120/comment-page-1/#comment-208090</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/?p=5683#comment-208090</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;“in the final analysis, he’s a rat and his plight never feels real because rats don’t think, talk, or write books!”&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m just going to pretend that&#039;s wink-nudge irony. &#039;Cause otherwise it may be the silliest, most incompetent &amp; superficial stand-in for criticism I&#039;ve stumbled on in a while. I&#039;m not trying to get ad hominem here, but we&#039;re talking about basic tenets of literature. Fiction as a means of non-literal truth. Sarvas is looking like a poster child for the empirical age. And literature ain&#039;t realistic. Let&#039;s get that out of the way--all fiction is as impossible as a literate rat; some is just more subtly so. If you&#039;re getting hung up on simple conceits introduced in kid&#039;s lit, I don&#039;t know that you ought to graduate to the Big Boys&#039; &amp; Girls&#039; shelf just yet.

Hell, if we really want to get into it, there may be a moral dimension to stories with aggressively alien/unfamiliar/impossible protagonists and situations. Not that such works are necessarily didactic; rather, they&#039;re exercises in the empathic leap. Look at the mind-hopping daemon-parasite-thing in David Mitchell&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Ghostwritten.&lt;/i&gt; It&#039;s been a while since I&#039;ve read it, but I think that novel deals somewhat with the idea of empathic challenges.

At bottom (in the final analysis), the screaming problem with Sarvas&#039;s criticism is his angle of attack. Had he said, &quot;Savage doesn&#039;t convince me that THIS rat thinks, feels, writes, drives cars, does meth,&quot; then whatever. Fair enough. Tell me why. But he suggests--whether deliberately or by virtue of lazy writing; probably the former--that impossible narrators/protagonists are a fundamental, objective flaw which any work will have to strive hard, and probably in vain, to overcome. As you pointed out, a quick glance at any bookshelf just doesn&#039;t bear that out (in spite of Sarvas&#039;s grinning, pretentious opening paragraph).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>“in the final analysis, he’s a rat and his plight never feels real because rats don’t think, talk, or write books!”</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m just going to pretend that&#8217;s wink-nudge irony. &#8216;Cause otherwise it may be the silliest, most incompetent &amp; superficial stand-in for criticism I&#8217;ve stumbled on in a while. I&#8217;m not trying to get ad hominem here, but we&#8217;re talking about basic tenets of literature. Fiction as a means of non-literal truth. Sarvas is looking like a poster child for the empirical age. And literature ain&#8217;t realistic. Let&#8217;s get that out of the way&#8211;all fiction is as impossible as a literate rat; some is just more subtly so. If you&#8217;re getting hung up on simple conceits introduced in kid&#8217;s lit, I don&#8217;t know that you ought to graduate to the Big Boys&#8217; &amp; Girls&#8217; shelf just yet.</p>
<p>Hell, if we really want to get into it, there may be a moral dimension to stories with aggressively alien/unfamiliar/impossible protagonists and situations. Not that such works are necessarily didactic; rather, they&#8217;re exercises in the empathic leap. Look at the mind-hopping daemon-parasite-thing in David Mitchell&#8217;s <i>Ghostwritten.</i> It&#8217;s been a while since I&#8217;ve read it, but I think that novel deals somewhat with the idea of empathic challenges.</p>
<p>At bottom (in the final analysis), the screaming problem with Sarvas&#8217;s criticism is his angle of attack. Had he said, &#8220;Savage doesn&#8217;t convince me that THIS rat thinks, feels, writes, drives cars, does meth,&#8221; then whatever. Fair enough. Tell me why. But he suggests&#8211;whether deliberately or by virtue of lazy writing; probably the former&#8211;that impossible narrators/protagonists are a fundamental, objective flaw which any work will have to strive hard, and probably in vain, to overcome. As you pointed out, a quick glance at any bookshelf just doesn&#8217;t bear that out (in spite of Sarvas&#8217;s grinning, pretentious opening paragraph).</p>
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		<title>By: callie</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/roundup-120/comment-page-1/#comment-208073</link>
		<dc:creator>callie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;ll be at the Banville reading tonight and will issue a full report.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll be at the Banville reading tonight and will issue a full report.</p>
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		<title>By: TEV</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/roundup-120/comment-page-1/#comment-208063</link>
		<dc:creator>TEV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:02:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Fouled up my coding - only &quot;care&quot; and &quot;like&quot; are meant to be emphasized.  Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fouled up my coding &#8211; only &#8220;care&#8221; and &#8220;like&#8221; are meant to be emphasized.  Sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: TEV</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/roundup-120/comment-page-1/#comment-208061</link>
		<dc:creator>TEV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:01:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Edward,

To be clear, as I said:

I did not &lt;i&gt;care&lt;i&gt; about Firmin because he is (I believe) a rat.

I did not &lt;i&gt;like&lt;/i&gt; the book because I found its twee execution cloying beyond belief.  But it appears, predictably, that differences of taste with you are not allowed.  (None of the other animal stories you note are similarly cutesy.)

And I know the rat does not talk; I meant &quot;talk&quot; to us, to the readers, via the narration - which I admit is a sloppy and misleading formulation.

Mark</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Edward,</p>
<p>To be clear, as I said:</p>
<p>I did not <i>care</i><i> about Firmin because he is (I believe) a rat.</p>
<p>I did not </i><i>like</i> the book because I found its twee execution cloying beyond belief.  But it appears, predictably, that differences of taste with you are not allowed.  (None of the other animal stories you note are similarly cutesy.)</p>
<p>And I know the rat does not talk; I meant &#8220;talk&#8221; to us, to the readers, via the narration &#8211; which I admit is a sloppy and misleading formulation.</p>
<p>Mark</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Winter</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/roundup-120/comment-page-1/#comment-208046</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Winter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:32:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/?p=5683#comment-208046</guid>
		<description>&quot;And maybe this will help the folks in Cincinnati settle the Wopat and Schneider question: perhaps the real concern is hurled underwear.&quot;

And while we&#039;re on the subject, underwear hurling is not permitted in Hamilton County by order of Sheriff Simon L. Leis, Morality Gestapo Oberfuher.  I live in Clermont County, where we&#039;re allowed to throw anything we want.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And maybe this will help the folks in Cincinnati settle the Wopat and Schneider question: perhaps the real concern is hurled underwear.&#8221;</p>
<p>And while we&#8217;re on the subject, underwear hurling is not permitted in Hamilton County by order of Sheriff Simon L. Leis, Morality Gestapo Oberfuher.  I live in Clermont County, where we&#8217;re allowed to throw anything we want.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Winter</title>
		<link>http://www.edrants.com/roundup-120/comment-page-1/#comment-208045</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Winter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:30:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edrants.com/?p=5683#comment-208045</guid>
		<description>&#039;Cuz as we all know, an orchestra should be worried about how they&#039;re spoken of by Cooter.

They had him on WLW here in Cincy yesterday, which means it was a slow news day in the Queen City.

Is it any wonder I moved to the &#039;burbs and am seriously pondering moving to Chicago?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Cuz as we all know, an orchestra should be worried about how they&#8217;re spoken of by Cooter.</p>
<p>They had him on WLW here in Cincy yesterday, which means it was a slow news day in the Queen City.</p>
<p>Is it any wonder I moved to the &#8216;burbs and am seriously pondering moving to Chicago?</p>
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